We are a four sheet club with an all volunteer staff - including the ice man and committee. We are about to have our 3rd iceman in 4 years. Fortunately, all of them have been good at research and have been good at learning as much as they can where they can. The next closest club is 2 hours away. We are always looking for ways to improve our ice conditions and this year have some money to do it. So here's the question. If we bring in a "consultant" (an iceman with extensive knowledge) can they help 1) if they only can see our stats from last season and our facility 2) if we bring them at the beginning of the season can they really see what is wrong with a one day visit or does it take a longer term relationship where they get more feedback.
About 7 years ago, we brought in a well known iceman to help us and the general impression was he wasn't much help. His list was too long and not prioritized and some of his assumptions where proven incorrect (Like too much salt in our sand)
We have our own ideas as to how to prioritize inserting stones, increasing our dehumifiers and heaters power, insulating our cement block walls, putting down newer "less shedding" floor covering but would love to have more educated advice.
So what do you guys think? Can a short term "consulting" contact work or would it need to be a "season
+" relationship to really know which option is better.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Shucks, that's a tough question(s). In the opinion of members of the SCIG, we do not believe it is possible to train an ice tech in less than a year, maybe two. This is not a reflection on their abilities or anything, it is that complicated a job. Some learn quicker than others and some never learn.
Getting in a consultant for a day or two will teach you something, but I'm afraid it is more complicated than that. Now, if you can find someone who knows his stuff who can come all season say once a fortnight, things change a little, but do you have the money to keep up with his suggestions? The big things are easy, quick to spot and expensive to change, but the little things take a lot longer and are not easily changed. The stats will help, but the answers will be subjective and based on his experiences elsewhere.
My own advice: spend the money on what will save you money, like dehumidifiers and insulation. Find an ice tech who wants to be there, pay him well and let him learn. In the long run this will save you money. If all fails, send me a plane ticket and I'll come and have a month's holiday! Probably your most cost-effective option.....
Dory ~ Don't forget ~ He's Teetotal!
John's right. You won't get much from even the best ice tech /consultant unless the guy who is going to do the job expects to be there for at least a few years.
Ice evolves as a season progresses, and every year the tech will learn how to do it better. To expect anyone to be able to do it well the first time is not realistic, training or no training.
Experience is everything. There is no simple formula for making good ice; it varies from floor to floor and year to year. You also have to wait til spring to actually experience how to take the ice out and put the kit away, for example.
The quality of your rink and equipment from scrapers to dehumidifiers is important, but unless the tech has some idea of what to do and why to do it, the best of facilities will not produce good ice.
Unfortunately when you have unpaid workers you generally get what you pay for.. ... .. Volunteers tend to have had enough after a year or two and then you have to go back to square one and start over.
If you spend money on a consultant for this year's volunteers the value of that expenditure will disappear when the current volunteers leave; next year or the year after?
A club should accept that the ice maker and his experience, not the plant and tools, is the most important asset the club has; [him and the rocks]. To expect that you can get good ice maintenance for free is naive at best. Pay the guy! And pay him well. Invest in some training for him [ie pay for the courses and transportation] and the ice will get better quickly. A paid ice tech will be more likely to stick around and put up with the inevitable criticism and compliants for several years than someone who is not getting anything more than personal satisfaction out of the job. [The whining too often destroys the willingness of even the best of volunteers.] Encourage volunteers to assist the iceman and when the time comes for him to move on or retire you will have a pool of experience to draw from.
If you have money to spend, spend it within the club. It will be the best investment you can make.
Havanicedayea! Jock
if you can have a volunteer that will do it for a few seasons that will help also. this spot here is a great place to learn stuff. I have learned more here then i ever expected as a new ice guy. I love my job on the ice because of this forum, it is awesome.
If you can get one guy to go for an ice making course that may help also. i know my club wants to send me once i sign my contract at the golf course, summer job. then they know i will be back and will spend to teach me more.
hopefully your volunteer person/people are like sponges and want to learn. this is the place to learn things. the tech on here are awesome.
nick
also, if you have a golf course chat with the superintendent there or the golf course itself. you may find a seasonal employee looking for a winter job. Then you guys can hook up with the course and sign some one to a contract for a season and see how it goes, just and idea.
nick
Unfortunatley is is not realistic to "pay him well" at many clubs. It is not an option at a lot of clubs that have 60-150 members and have limited budgets, soaring energy costs and ancient facilities to maintain.
We must get volunteer help that is willing to come back year after year, pick up information wherever we can and hope the compressors keep working.
That is why this forum is important to us. Keep posting.
"Realistic" makes a point I've heard many times, all over the world. Sorry, I disagree. If it is good curling you want, it is good ice you need, and that comes from someone who wants to make the ice every day until he drops. Paying someone well when there isn't any money to spare is a big problem, but it depends on what you want. If treading water is acceptable, tread water, the facility will close anyway. Good ice attracts more curlers, find a way.
I worked for many years at an hourly rate to keep a facility open. The curling increased, the money was there, at an hourly rate to be sure the ice was done every day. If the curlers can't find another 10% extra on ice fees, shut the place. Harsh but real. Value your ice tech or lose him, but don't expect him to subsidise your curling.
Dory mentions stones, dehumes, insulation -- she even mentions money. All good things. If she can say all that, the money is there. That is what I based my previous answer on, spend on what saves, pay the tech well.
I appreciate your candor John, but thats the way the club has been for over 50 years. We have no intentions to "shut the place" and are in no danger closing. The ice is adequate for a mostly social club, better than most in the area. The current volunteer and crew are in it for the long haul. We love to curl and live with the reality that we will never have resources for great ice, but never stop striving to make it better.
Yes, there are many clubs like yours, even new ones. I admire you all, for the right reasons. I hope you will be able to develop a better way when it comes to rebuilding your rink.
Dory..we are in the same boat,,,new volunteer iceman to begin next season. Looking for a clinic to get him jump started. If you find something helpful, please post it here...I will do the same. Cape Cod will be putting in ice end of June...thinking to send him there to learn something, however the needs of the Cape in June have little to do with New York in Sept...
John...I totally get the concept of paying the ice tech, but for us it is a "catch 22"
If we raise dues by $200 to pay an ice tech, we will pretty much insure we'll lose enough members to shutter the club. So we have to make do with our system as is.
People who want something for nothing generally get what they pay for.
If a club is not willing to pay something for the advantage of having someone take the responsibility for ice making they will have to deal with all the problems associated with that approach; including having to train a new ice tech every couple of seasons. No point in complaining about it.
Even a nominal amount of pay, say $1000.00 /month will make it worthwhile for a retired or semi-retired person to take on the job and listen to the bitching that goes with it. [It is hard to keep up any interest or committment when there are a few members who harp on what is 'wrong' with the ice all the time; and every club has a few...]
$6000.00 /season should not require a $200.00 /membership increase in dues. If it does, there are other problems with the way the club is run /financed.
Our club dues are $150.00 /season. We have about 50-60 regular adult members, and we make it work by raising money on bonspiels, running our own bar, and facility rentals for which we run the bar. Dues are not expected to carry the major expenses of the club.
Dory we have a similar set up as yours. We have a volunteer ice crew and committee. It is nice to be able to pay someone to do the ice but I haven’t been able to get more than a few free beers out of these guys. I think that you are the best judge of what you club needs. John is right to point out that the basics are easy to see dehumidifiers, insulation ect. Experience is key. I am in my third year of being ice tech. Each year has gotten better and better at reading the building and Ice. There are a lot of recourses out there. The SCIG web site and articles are excellent, the WCF Ice manual, and this forum is an excellent place to start. Unfortunately Jock is correct about the level of assist from volunteers’ waxes and wanes. If you have a member who is willing and the club can compensate him or her then that would be a good idea. A strong tie to the club makes me work hard to have the best Ice I can. But they also call me crazy for the time pt into making good Ice. As for the comments from the membership, they can be a little rough. But I nicely tell them “Don’t blame the Ice because you cannot curl.”
Our icemaker (all volunteer) has lots of help but logs an unbelievable amount of time working on our ice. The difference over the last few years has been amazing. I wish we could afford to pay him!
We have something similar to what you said "But I nicely tell them “Don’t blame the Ice because you cannot curl.”" There's a sign in our iceshed that says "People who can't swim don't blame the water."
Dory and other GNCC clubs. There is a possibility that an ice clinic may be held in the early season in the GNCC. It is still in the planning stages at this point with lots of logistics to work out.
If it does occur, I would expect an email to be sent to all the GNCC clubs. So, keep tuned, some help may be on the way.
JH
Was this discussed at the annual meeting? Is there something I can do to help make it happen?
It was discussed at the annual meeting. Jim Ridenour wants to set up a certification process similar to the way the instructors process works. Will keep everyone in the loop for sure.
Post new comment